What if the Starship is certified and built, but just doesn’t do anything well, and certainly not better than other airplanes. we would love to chat and share the good with the bad so that more perspective can be given on the Starship story as misaligned as its been. I did not work on the Starship, I was off on other projects such as the 38P, the King Air F90, and the Beech 1200 Commuter Airliner, all developed around the same time. Beech was always much better at incremental changes than brand new designs. With the immense investment Raytheon had to make to jump through all the regulatory hoops, the Starship ended up as a commercial failure. It uses the same engines as the King Air 200 and burns the same fuel, 100gph total, yet achieves 405 knots and will fly at 41,000 ft. I own a Piaggio P-180 which resembles the Starship. In fact I spend 95% of my life designing replacement solutions for obsolesce products on aircraft and or repairs to keep older airplanes flying? According to Piaggio, the Avanti II is 40 percent more efficient than any comparably sized jet and, with the same Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-66 engines as the Beechcraft … Raj Narayanan He was right, and they did. Starship NC-51 (The best airplane the company ever built), Fly well Richard! Be advised however, that flying-boat hulls are not ‘as easy’ as too many aircraft-designers have apparently assumed across the last 115 years. Beech was completely embarrised that a King Air was faster on less fuel burn. Likewise, contemplating why we aren’t seeing Beech Starships filling our skies is fascinating. Please remember, the airplane was designed in the 1980’s, not last year. I remember that Gulfstream made a composite rudder for its jet and saved 200 pounds. Most of the Comments are correct regarding increased weight. Powered by Pratt & Whitney PT6A-67A turboprops 895 kW each, designed by by Burt Rutan and Scaled composites, the maker of planes that fly around the world nonstop, or rocket planes that go to space. Mr. Scherer, Starship: First flight in february 1986. The Starship with her flexible wing gave an incredibly smooth ride, all passengers loved it. First Beechcraft hired Scaled Composites to build an 85% scale version to prove the concept. Wouldn’t you agree? You are also wrong about the ventral fin. I own and fly a Skymaster and I face a daily barrage of Mixmaster jokes, maintenance ridicule and etc.. Robert Scherer – Owner/Pilot, Starship NC-51. His father, Leighton Collins, founded Air Facts Magazine. Mac, did you fly the Avanti? You do not have to be Richard Collins or Ernest Gann--simply a GA pilot with a story you'd share with friends sitting in the hangar. Back then we prided ourselves on safety and professionalism, and we worked with the FAA on design certification requirements. A recession — that hit general aviation particularly hard — cast a pall over the future. It was all kinds of floppy until it was glued to the rigid pieces either side, but it printed really fast and light! The prototype is not the production version, let alone the 2000A version. Browse a wide selection of new and used Aircraft near you at Controller.com. We used state of the art equipment and monitored the construction of the primary structure and the secondary bonding to assure compliance to type design. In the end Beech tried to buy back all of the Starships to put a couple in museums and destroy the rest to end the cost of supporting the tiny but complex fleet. The quiet factor is something everybody notices, except Mac. Jake, Bill’s remark was referencing the fact that Richard Collins, perhaps the pre-eminent aviation journalist of the last 50 years, passed away last week. An engine start, taxi, and take-off of a Piaggio Avanti from the Livermore, CA airport. I got a kick out of watching a Starship go up against Airwolf. Love your writing. If you look at the aft wing junction, you see 3/4 of a divergent nozzle on each wing. I was so excited that I ran to tell my wife, unfortunatly her level of excitement did not match mine. I ferried a helicopter from Torrance, Calif, to London, Ontario one year, 2008 or 9 i believe, and on the first day we stopped overnight in Marana (KAVQ) in Arizona. The airframe has 2695 hours, and the seller points out that the "jet quiet" cabin is a third larger than a King Air 350 at 2/3 the price. Other examples include: Burt Rutan’s Long EZ and its variants, the Convair B36, the Cessna 337 (a push-pull configuration), the Velocity family of homebuilts, a wide variety … I was actually working on a free print-it-yourself trump card game with rocket engines some years back, to help familiarize oneself with their features, I still think I have the publisher files stashed somewhere. We at AQRD in Dallas, TX own and operate two. 30 years later its systems including landing gear, and other mechanical systems are easily repairable and supportable in the field. Price $ $ ... 2008 PIAGGIO P-180 AVANTI II. After all, few designers are ever truly ‘done’ on even the most serious projects ?! I will eventually tell the whole story of Starship development in my bio. The total development cost of the Beechcraft Starship was $300 Million. Whoa, I don’t think Mac deserves that. With greater range, faster climb, reduced fuel costs, a lower noise footprint, added safety systems, and a more luxurious cabin, Avanti EVO is yet another step forward. Did you know that most of the articles at Air Facts are written by readers like you? How many hours of Starship time do you have Mark? Your email address will not be published. P.S., love reading your work Mac! (Now a few decades later, we also know that internal delamination between the carbon fibers and the honeycomb core can be an isssue). My personal hands on experience flying the airplane was great- very stable, stall recovery required minimal control input as it basically fluttered down through the air, instrument approaches were a breeze as you could track the airplane’s progress on the localizer using the EFIS, turn off track to avoid weather, and then reposition the airplane onto the localizer effortlessly which was a BIG deal back then, and it was faster than the King Air’s of the day though, as mentioned, didn’t make the numbers as advertised. Bottom line, what looks fast isn’t necessarily fast!!! They are made of stamped stainless sheet metal, not cast steel. My belief is that it ended up hurting the final result. I never got the type rating, just the BEECHJET and 300 King Air and 1900 Airliner. Has someone been into both cabins who can comment on the internal room? Without the vision of pioneers we would not be where we are in aviation today. toggie F1 World Champ It was a jaw-dropping experience. They knew the problems you described existed when it was still on paper. Daher TBM 850 Daher TBM 900/910/930/940. The pilot had to haul bags up the airstair, down the aisle to the rear of the airplane(and in the process bumping all that expensive leather on each side) and over the back seat, as in a Learjet. I’ll bet ZERO. Critic of all successful aerospace engineers? The word luddite comes to mind. The Piaggo suffers from a terrible supply chain problem including a landing gear that costs in excess of 200K to overhaul, and the Cheyanne is just a sub-par build quality airplane (my opinion) as an (aerospace engineer, aircraft mechanic, and an ATP). I also have friends that owned Hawkers, Gulfstreams, Citations and Falcons they were all amazed at the extremely low cabin noise level that rivaled their planes. BeechTalk.com • BT - The definitive Piaggio P180 Avanti thread. So was Global Flyer, SpaceShipOne, White Knight, etc, etc. Makes sense to me. But, as they say, Linden was the leading expert at that time on pusher turboprops. The GARMIN G1000 would be great in STARSHIP. A real “winner”. I didn’ realize that the Starship was such a blunder, or that Rutan did nothing but bash that process rather than participate in it as he should have. [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT8qKXPJKdw], [youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLrO45MeaJU], Starship: First flight in february 1986. We immediatly drove the few miles to the airport but did not see the plane anywhere. The Starship’s basic configuration was flawed. Its not ideal, but that is probably the reason for the weird sound the Piaggio makes. It was evening, dark, and we had just parked our Citation on Lane’s ramp behind a Starship. Rather, they come from lots of people all having little Eurekas and little “damn, I was sure that would work” moments. In fact, that just might be the biggest mistake you ever made. Robert Scherer – Owner/Pilot, Starship NC-51. Ibis Aerospace Ae 270 HP. Air Facts still champions, educates, informs and entertains pilots worldwide with real-world flying experiences. It is the possibility of voids or other flaws in the composite layup. Beech did not know how to market new airplanes. And you’re right about the cabin sound level in the Starship. How did you do in the race, Vic? The rest were leased because almost nobody wanted to sign on for an open-ended conventional ownership. He said “I think we need to damp down the response for the corporate crowd.” There was a small lobby on our side of the hangar in front of our office with just a couple of chairs. However even Jesus made mistakes. We owe it to the newer aviators who look to you seasoned aviators for wisdom and mentoring – not catfighting among yourselves. So Mac, I invite you to study the operational and sustainability argument as part of the starship in so much as any airplane. Analysis methods and technology were not robust enough on any platform in that era. Mac Mc, If the FAA had allowed the Starship to be built as Burt Rutan had designed her, she would have blown away the King Air in every way. I just wonder why you hate an airplane everyone else (except Mac) loves. PIAGGIO Avanti P-180. It also has a lifting foreplane ahead of the cockpit and high T tail. You obviously love the Starship and its reputed to be a stout airplane, but the reality was the market judged it negatively, sadly. Which is another airplane, like the Starship,that could perhaps be built better today (with better business decisions and today’s technology). Seems everyone has a Starship story. You might find that while short on initial design and performance expectations, the Starship 30 years later has allot to offer in terms of performance, reliability, safety standard, IFR/IMC capability etc. However, having worked on the airplane, modified it, and upgraded it in the field, I am going to tell you very few aircraft that were made in the last 30 years, much less today have the simplicity of design as the starship today. Mark Wyant wrote:LOL naaaah more like this.. F37AFFEF-D2AE-464E-905D-0B71BEB0DA81.jpeg. One of the many reasons why despite a globe with endless water runways, we do not have an adequate range of such types available. For years I have grabbed my binoculars and run out the back patio door of my house when I hear the distinctive sound of a Starship cruise into Carlsbad, Ca airport. 4) the performance of the forward canard was greatly diminished if contaminated by frost or other contaminants which could lead to an off airport excursion on take off if left unchecked. Can comment on the flying Magazine Beech did get some good technology experience out of cheap.... Broader aviation world being divided on the nose wheel the Hobbs meter ticking off tenths of an hour airplane.! Of ZERO accidents or incidents in the story of the comments of Beech,. Substantially behind the Starship ended up being colossal failures entertains pilots worldwide with real-world flying.... Rutan never, ever, certified anything according to the fatigue problem of the blame to... Spots where components are fastened the ventral fin is a three surface configuration allows for a lot of,... 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